Curse

JeniM · Mar 19, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

as you only get rewards for missions once i don't really see how "play the storyline" applies. Do you really want to do the same mission you know off by heart yet again?

mr_groovy · Mar 19, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Yes... fixed prices which seem perfectly fine to me in the light of how lootscaling works.

It's you who doesn't get it. If I make 50k per hour, that gold wouldn't be worth anything because I can't even spend it on those things you mention. A person only needs so many armors, skill points, consumables or runes. (Or none at all in the case of consumables, meh.) If I could buy an elite armor every 2 hours, what the hell do I do after I got them all?

There you go, you just awnsered your own question. If a casual player can spend that time to get some "Basic" vanity stuff, it leaves him/ her time to other stuff to do. Which can be offcourse RL or IG.
Also 50K per hour from just merching stuff? Isn't that a bit optimistic? I remember making money 3 to 4K on an UW run and 7Kish on a fow run, from merching (this excludes golds + rare mats). Which would be around 20K a hour, with the benefit of getting some nice drops.

(Speaking of which did a E/me UW run earlier today made a whopping 800gp, and no globs

).

reetkever · Mar 19, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

/unsigned. I can see it now. After a month of no loot scaling: "WTS purple 15^50 12 Marks ivory bow.... 50k." A bit extreme, but you get the idea.

What makes you think prices will rise after loot scaling is gone? The same amount of golds still drop (Exemption list). People have more cash to spend, but I doupt they want to spend it on non-rare weapons. Sellers will still have to lower their prices in order to sell their unwanted weapon.

rare weapon skinned-weapons might go up a bit, but they were high to begin with, and with the cash we can get by farming without loot scaling, affording them won't be a problem.

Fact is that the economy is crap these days, and before the loot scaling and exemption list came, the economy was good. Maybe we helped the economy so far to hell that it can't be fixed... But it never hurts to try since it can't get much worse, either.

Fril Estelin · Mar 19, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

some players are looking for a more steady income of plat.

Well, did "these players" forget that GW is a game? Income of plat, that's spoken as if it was real-life. Income to pay a rent? Or food for your characters?

More seriously, as I said before, I'm not a hard pro-take-back-LS, but so far I haven't read very convincing arguments against it, apart from the one saying that it may impact the economy in the wrong way. And even on this, I'm not sure.

Sanakthe Victus · Mar 19, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Only thing I hope for now is that a GW DEV is watching this thread to elaborate with us.

Creeping Carl · Mar 19, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Did everyone forget one of the reasons LS was put in? It wasnt just to discourage botting, it was to narrow the bridge between casual player and the hardcore farmer. The wealth discrepancy without LS would be even worse.

JeniM · Mar 19, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

the economy can get worse?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanakthe Victus

Only thing I hope for now is that a GW DEV is watching this thread to elaborate with us.

Whens the last time a "Dev" did more than lurking on these threads in "invisible mode"????

The Fox · Mar 19, 2008, 10:31 PM // 22:31

/signed BUT Loot Scaling still wouldn't be as good as just a general increase in drops.

In a nutshell it's necessary to increase drop rate as less gold enters the game or demand could rise for gold beyond normal and even potentially offset the gain from the update, which could creat MORE bots than before. For more details go to this treat.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0268457&page=6

Fril Estelin · Mar 19, 2008, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Did everyone forget one of the reasons LS was put in? It wasnt just to discourage botting, it was to narrow the bridge between casual player and the hardcore farmer. The wealth discrepancy without LS would be even worse.

That's not what I get from Gaile's original comment, put in the unofficial GWiki:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Loot#Loot_scaling

Quote:

Without loot scaling, solo farmers received every loot drop, whereas people who played in a party received only a fraction of loot drops. Thus, solo farmers received up to eight times as much loot for killing the same group of monsters. With loot scaling in place, solo farmers still get more loot than people who play in parties, but the gap is less severe than it was before. It is impossible to quantify precisely how much less because it depends on the type of loot farmed and involves some randomness, but here are some rough guidelines:

* People who play in normal size parties, including parties of heroes and henchman, will see no difference at all from loot scaling. At the same time, they will notice that normal mode is now much easier to farm, and that the introduction of Hard Mode provides a place they can play where the loot is better than ever before. Thus, people who play the game primarily in parties will simply make more money than they previously did.

* People who periodically enjoy farming solo (with no heroes or henchmen) but are casual about it are also likely to see an improvement. They'll find that solo farming is much easier than it was before, because monsters don't have the anti-farming AI that they used to have, and because the game no longer prevents players from repeatedly farming the same monsters over and over. Many types of builds that didn't work in the past, or that haven't been effective since the earliest days of Guild Wars, can now be used for solo farming. Thus, casual farmers will find the game much easier to farm than it was before, and that they can earn more money than before even with loot scaling in place.

* People who were advanced solo farmers and who were earning vastly more money through solo farming than through playing the game normally will see the full effect of loot scaling. They will earn less gold and common loot from solo farming than they did in the past. The loot scaling for gold and common loot is not linear with the number of players in the party, and it includes an element of randomness, so while the difference is not easy to quantify, it is by no means a factor of eight. Advanced solo farmers may now earn about twice as much gold and common loot from farming solo as they would if they farmed in a party. While gold and common loot are thus reduced for these players by loot scaling, certain other types of loot are completely unaffected. For example, Skill Tomes are completely unaffected by loot scaling, so they still drop eight times as frequently for solo farmers than they do for people who play in parties. Thus, advanced solo farmers will find that certain types of farming are still extremely productive for them, but they may have to change what and where they farm if they want to earn as much money as they did before.

reetkever · Mar 19, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Did everyone forget one of the reasons LS was put in? It wasnt just to discourage botting, it was to narrow the bridge between casual player and the hardcore farmer. The wealth discrepancy without LS would be even worse.

Loot scaling didn't change this at all.

Before the loot scaling:

Everyone can become rich if he/she wants. He/she just has to farm for a little while (Yes I know, 'I dont wannah work in mah game cause if i dont spent evry minut on the game i will die but i still want perfekt wepons'. Well nothing is free. Rare weapons are rare for a reason. If everyone could have them without doing something for them, they'd be as rare as a Raven Staff in the Shiverpeaks.

After the loot scaling:

Nobody can farm as much as before so everyone becomes poor. Only the people that had millions of Platinum still remain rich (Since ecto price rose after the Loot Scaling. Their stacks became worth lots more.)

Even if one wanted to farm, no more would drop than from just playing the game.

Before loot scaling, we at least had the CHOICE to work for cash, now we are forced with low drop rates, crappy chest drops and invisible party members stealing our drops when solo-ing.

JeniM · Mar 19, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Like the bit in Gaile's speech- People who were advanced solo farmers and who were earning vastly more money through solo farming than through playing the game normally will see the full effect of loot scaling

Theres something other than farming to do after your lvl 20 and finish the campaign???
also how does this help the casual gamer and hurt the hardcore player? The hardcore player is still spending more time online than the casual and is thus still making more gold. All thats changed is you have to play MORE if you want to buy something from an NPC

So loot scaling was made to help the casual player but it just helped
-hardcore players
-bots
-the gold selling companys
talk about one step forward and 500 steps back

Gli · Mar 19, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

There you go, you just awnsered your own question. If a casual player can spend that time to get some "Basic" vanity stuff, it leaves him/ her time to other stuff to do.

But isn't getting 'basic' vanity stuff like most elite armors still just as easy for casual players who don't farm at all as it ever was? If players moving through the game don't get the same money I got when I started 2.5 years ago, that's a whole different issue than lootscaling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

Also 50K per hour from just merching stuff? Isn't that a bit optimistic? I remember making money 3 to 4K on an UW run and 7Kish on a fow run, from merching (this excludes golds + rare mats). Which would be around 20K a hour, with the benefit of getting some nice drops.

Don't forget, we have Hard Mode now, where it takes me just a few minutes to kill 50+ level 24 creatures. Imagine the excessive income if they ALL dropped something appropriate to their level. I'd have to abort some farm runs one quarter of the way in due to all 40 free spaces filled up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

(Speaking of which did a E/me UW run earlier today made a whopping 800gp, and no globs

).

Here I can relate, the UW hasn't been good for me either lately.

reetkever · Mar 19, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

But isn't getting 'basic' vanity stuff like most elite armors still just as easy for casual players who don't farm at all as it ever was? If players moving through the game don't get the same money I got when I started 2.5 years ago, that's a whole different issue than lootscaling.

Back in my noob days, I still had to farm for 15K armor, even though I mostly did the storyline. Even though I was a casual player, I still needed to farm for stuff. Now it's the same case, except farming is impossible (Well it's possible, but without getting more drops).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Don't forget, we have Hard Mode now, where it takes me just a few minutes to kill 50+ level 24 creatures. Imagine the excessive income if they ALL dropped something appropriate to their level. I'd have to abort some farm runs one quarter of the way in due to all 40 free spaces filled up.

HM is not for Casual Players and is epic fail overall. And if needed, Loot Scaling could still apply to HM (At least to some extend).

Fril Estelin · Mar 19, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeniM

Theres something other than farming to do after your lvl 20 and finish the campaign???

Quests? Protector? Vanquish? Dungeons? Titles? And not to mention UW,FoW,DoA and ... playing for fun!! (there have been a few ideas here and there in GWG). The simple fact of replaying Hell's Precipice with a few friends last week-end gave me a lot of fun, without any real "material" rewards (gold or loot).

I mentioned Gaile's message to talk about the original reason stated for LS. Now we all know it didn't go exactly as planned.

Anyway, I'll stop here because I'm no longer producing anything interesting in this thread. As I said and many said before: possibly(probably) /signed, provided RMT is off our game.

Creeping Carl · Mar 19, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

That's not what I get from Gaile's original comment, put in the unofficial GWiki:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Loot#Loot_scaling

I dont understand. Isnt what I said a basic summary of what Gaile said? She said that normal play in a team and casual farmers will see the same or slight improvement in their earnings while the hardcore farmers are the ones who will get "nerfed" the most.

Isnt that basically narrowing the gap between casual and hardcore? How does that contradict what I said?

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Loot scaling didn't change this at all.

Before the loot scaling:

Everyone can become rich if he/she wants. He/she just has to farm for a little while (Yes I know, 'I dont wannah work in mah game cause if i dont spent evry minut on the game i will die but i still want perfekt wepons'. Well nothing is free. Rare weapons are rare for a reason. If everyone could have them without doing something for them, they'd be as rare as a Raven Staff in the Shiverpeaks.

After the loot scaling:

Nobody can farm as much as before so everyone becomes poor. Only the people that had millions of Platinum still remain rich (Since ecto price rose after the Loot Scaling. Their stacks became worth lots more.)

Even if one wanted to farm, no more would drop than from just playing the game.

Before loot scaling, we at least had the CHOICE to work for cash, now we are forced with low drop rates, crappy chest drops and invisible party members stealing our drops when solo-ing.

Your logic makes no sense. If all it takes for casual players to be rich is to just "farm more" then how would they be casual players at all? How would they even come close to the level of wealth as the hardcore farmers?

As I said, LS is to narrow the wealth discrepancy. You might not like the method being used but I can't see how anyone can argue that's the intention.

reetkever · Mar 19, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Quests? Protector? Vanquish? Dungeons? Titles? And not to mention UW,FoW,DoA and ... playing for fun!! (there have been a few ideas here and there in GWG). The simple fact of replaying Hell's Precipice with a few friends last week-end gave me a lot of fun, without any real "material" rewards (gold or loot).

I mentioned Gaile's message to talk about the original reason stated for LS. Now we all know it didn't go exactly as planned.

Anyway, I'll stop here because I'm no longer producing anything interesting in this thread. As I said and many said before: possibly(probably) /signed, provided RMT is off our game.

I agree these things are fun, but would removing the loot scaling remove the fun from other things? No.

It would just give players more choice in what they do. 2 years ago Guild Wars had loads of stuff to do that is nerfed/impossible now... All thanks to the bots and the countermeasures for them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I dont understand. Isnt what I said a basic summary of what Gaile said? She said that normal play in a team and casual farmers will see the same or slight improvement in their earnings while the hardcore farmers are the ones who will get "nerfed" the most.

Isnt that basically narrowing the gap between casual and hardcore? How does that contradict what I said?

Loot scaling didn't nerf hardcore farmers - it helped them. The ones who get nailed by loot scaling the most are the casual players, who are now doomed to STAY poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

Your logic makes no sense. If all it takes for casual players to be rich is to just "farm more" then how would they be casual players at all? How would they even come close to the level of wealth as the hardcore farmers?

As I said, LS is to narrow the wealth discrepancy. You might not like the method being used but I can't see how anyone can argue that's the intention.

Casual player =/= not-farmer.

In my opinion, if someone does a few trolls runs a day just to buy what he needs, it's still a casual player. As long as he/she doesn't spend 20 hours a day farming, becoming a hardcore farmer, it's fine.

A casual player is just someone playing the game and having fun, instead of only farming. Well, farming is fun once in a while. You get a great feeling of accomplishment and a good reward so you can buy a skill or dye your armor without being afraid you might get in trouble for being poor later (This is without loot scaling of course).

Anyway, poor people stayed poor thanks to LS, and rich people got even richer since their ecto stacks increased in price for a while (It's finally low again, though).

Fril Estelin · Mar 19, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I dont understand. Isnt what I said a basic summary of what Gaile said? She said that normal play in a team and casual farmers will see the same or slight improvement in their earnings while the hardcore farmers are the ones who will get "nerfed" the most.

Isnt that basically narrowing the gap between casual and hardcore? How does that contradict what I said?

It does in several sense:

1) Gaile splitted hardcore (if you understand "farmer" as harcore and leave the "casual farmer" aside) into 2 categories, with the 2nd one being targetted at RMT;

2) the intention never was to narrow the gap, and her words do not imply that in the most general sense:
2a) in the 3 categories she quote, the casual is number 1 and they aim that these guys should not be affected
2b) casual farmer would have improve, thus increasing the gap with category 1
2c) harcore farmer would become inefficient, which is narrowing the gap, but only in this case.

But that's not the point here, we won't change the past, I just wanted this to be reminded to everyone (we may have misunderstood each other by the way!).

Creeping Carl · Mar 19, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

*sigh* You people are just picking and choosing what you want to see. How is Gailes statement NOT implying that it was to narrow the bridge of weath between casual and hardcore?

However you want to nitpick the labels, the intention was very clear. At least to the rational minded. But I'll bow out now since this subject is always a powder keg for some of you folks.

reetkever · Mar 19, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

*sigh* You people are just picking and choosing what you want to see. How is Gailes statement NOT implying that it was to narrow the bridge of weath between casual and hardcore?

However you want to nitpick the labels, the intention was very clear. At least to the rational minded. But I'll bow out now since this subject is always a powder keg for some of you folks.

Again, lootscaling does not narrow the bridge of wealth between casual and hardcore, it widens it.

And if A-Net really wanted to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor, they wouldn't come with stuff like the Polar Bear and only make it available to like 10 people in the game.

Gli · Mar 19, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Back in my noob days, I still had to farm for 15K armor, even though I mostly did the storyline. Even though I was a casual player, I still needed to farm for stuff. Now it's the same case, except farming is impossible (Well it's possible, but without getting more drops).

I didn't. On my first character, when I arrived at the Granite Citadel, after playing through every mission and doing every quest up to that point in the game all the while picking up everything that had my name on it, I had almost enough to buy myself an elite armor. I bought it after arriving at the ring of fire. Mind you, the only armor I'd bought up to that point was in post-searing Ascalon. All my other intermediate armor sets had been collector armor. (Max armor in the crystal desert, good times!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

HM is not for Casual Players and is epic fail overall. And if needed, Loot Scaling could still apply to HM (At least to some extend).

So you basically agree that given the way HM works, loot scaling is actually a good thing?